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Capacitor leakage?

Postby NatureDude » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:01 am

It's hard to say from that picture. I'd guess, and it's only a guess, that it is more likely flux or cleaning residue. Only problems inside the cap would matter. You mention oxidation; it's interesting to note that oxide is actually the active element in this kind of capacitor. There is an aluminum film wound up like a jelly roll inside, and the very thin aluminum oxide that forms on it is actually the dielectric. The liquid electrolyte, soaked into paper and part of the jelly roll, combined with an applied voltage is what maintains the oxide. The thinness of the oxide is why the voltage rating is relatively low, and the capacitance per volume is so high.

Oldie/Moldy EE
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Re: Capacitor leakage?

Postby irev210 » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:24 am

NatureDude wrote:It's hard to say from that picture. I'd guess, and it's only a guess, that it is more likely flux or cleaning residue. Only problems inside the cap would matter. You mention oxidation; it's interesting to note that oxide is actually the active element in this kind of capacitor. There is an aluminum film wound up like a jelly roll inside, and the very thin aluminum oxide that forms on it is actually the dielectric. The liquid electrolyte, soaked into paper and part of the jelly roll, combined with an applied voltage is what maintains the oxide. The thinness of the oxide is why the voltage rating is relatively low, and the capacitance per volume is so high.

Oldie/Moldy EE




Hello there oldie/moldy


The photo isnt the best, but what is happening is the cap is bulging and leaking out electrolytic material through the vent.

These garbage caps are very well known to fail, especially when subjected to an increased amount of heat.


I will show you a photo of another unit when I recap it, it is 10x worse than my unit.


Mind you, this unit is about 1 1/2 years old.



As I have used the other PSU's for other projects, I think I am just going to recap it at this point. The only question for me is, what caps to use!

Nippon Chemcon
Panasonic
Rubycon
Sanyo
Samxon


On a side note, I upgraded my fan to a Sanyo Denki Made in Japan 92x32mm fan and it works wonders! I was a little worried about the *slightly* higher current draw, but since it always sits at 2200rpm... seems to be fine.


Fan is much smoother and quieter, emitting a much less annoying hum.


Disk 1 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 36C / 96F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 2 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 36C / 96F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 3 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 35C / 95F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 4 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 35C / 95F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK

Temp 1 32.0C / 89F


Ambient room temp = 72F :)
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Bad capacitors

Postby NatureDude » Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:42 pm

Hi,
Well bulging is an entirely different story. That's a definate failure indication, it's time to replace! And 1.5 years life is totally unacceptable even for home service.

I recognize the first four brands you note; all are good; don't know anything about Samxon. If you want long life at somewhat extended temperatures, that's the spec you want to look for; high temp units. They should rate the number of hours life at an extended temperature, usually 85C or 105C. No, you won't use them that hot, but it's a good life indicator. One example is Illinois Capacitor CKH/CKE series. Something like HSM series would be even longer life, but may not be small enough for the same capacitance.

Probably anything you use is much better than stock, from what I'm hearing. Infrant didn't design this thing, poor fellows, but they should be giving their PS vendor a life spec to meet at elevated temperature.

Drew

---------------

Hello there oldie/moldy

The photo isnt the best, but what is happening is the cap is bulging and leaking out electrolytic material through the vent.

These garbage caps are very well known to fail, especially when subjected to an increased amount of heat.


I will show you a photo of another unit when I recap it, it is 10x worse than my unit.


Mind you, this unit is about 1 1/2 years old.



As I have used the other PSU's for other projects, I think I am just going to recap it at this point. The only question for me is, what caps to use!

Nippon Chemcon
Panasonic
Rubycon
Sanyo
Samxon


On a side note, I upgraded my fan to a Sanyo Denki Made in Japan 92x32mm fan and it works wonders! I was a little worried about the *slightly* higher current draw, but since it always sits at 2200rpm... seems to be fine.


Fan is much smoother and quieter, emitting a much less annoying hum.


Disk 1 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 36C / 96F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 2 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 36C / 96F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 3 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 35C / 95F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 4 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 35C / 95F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK

Temp 1 32.0C / 89F


Ambient room temp = 72F
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Re: Capacitor leakage?

Postby eco001 » Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:20 pm

irev210 wrote:On a side note, I upgraded my fan to a Sanyo Denki Made in Japan 92x32mm fan and it works wonders! I was a little worried about the *slightly* higher current draw, but since it always sits at 2200rpm... seems to be fine.

Fan is much smoother and quieter, emitting a much less annoying hum.


I decided to try your fan setup and have come across a coupla issues that should be mentioned if anyone else decides to try this.

First, I started off by installing this fan as a direct replacement of the OEM unit. The Sano Denki is deeper, but there is enough room inside the case for it. However, it sits so close to the circuit board/partition between it and the hard drives that the fan cavitates like crazy. After powering up, the fan sat at 3000 RPM and was much louder than stock. I could tell from the crazy outflow stream the fan was unhappy with that non-existent intake depth.

So I simply moved the fan to the outside of the box using the same holes in the case, but the opposite holes on the fan. This gave it a much freer intake path. I wanted to keep the same flow direction (out), so I had to dremel a small notch in the fan hole of the case to provide a route for the cable to pass through. I also had to remove the handle, but it went back on after the fan was installed (though it was pushed up at a slight angle because of some interference).

Now the fan runs much better. It settled in at 2100 RPM and the box dropped a degree-and-a-half and the four 500 GB drives 2 deg as compared to stock.

But that was when I discovered my second issue. I lucked into a fan with a noisy bearing. I can hear the damn thing chirping merrily away. Not loud, but distinct. And it's a pain in the butt getting an exchange on a $5 item online.
:hammer:

So I'll give it a coupla days and see if it quietens down. If not, I'll probably go back to stock.

Not a bad way to go tho, so long as your fan isn't a lemon.

EDIT: I neglected to mention that this was an NV+ unit.

eCo
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Re: Capacitor leakage?

Postby irev210 » Sat Jul 28, 2007 3:03 pm

eco001 wrote:I decided to try your fan setup and have come across a coupla issues that should be mentioned if anyone else decides to try this.

First, I started off by installing this fan as a direct replacement of the OEM unit. The Sano Denki is deeper, but there is enough room inside the case for it. However, it sits so close to the circuit board/partition between it and the hard drives that the fan cavitates like crazy. After powering up, the fan sat at 3000 RPM and was much louder than stock. I could tell from the crazy outflow stream the fan was unhappy with that non-existent intake depth.

So I simply moved the fan to the outside of the box using the same holes in the case, but the opposite holes on the fan. This gave it a much freer intake path. I wanted to keep the same flow direction (out), so I had to dremel a small notch in the fan hole of the case to provide a route for the cable to pass through. I also had to remove the handle, but it went back on after the fan was installed (though it was pushed up at a slight angle because of some interference).

Now the fan runs much better. It settled in at 2100 RPM and the box dropped a degree-and-a-half and the four 500 GB drives 2 deg as compared to stock.

But that was when I discovered my second issue. I lucked into a fan with a noisy bearing. I can hear the damn thing chirping merrily away. Not loud, but distinct. And it's a pain in the butt getting an exchange on a $5 item online.
:hammer:

eCo



I notice that it runs CLOSE to the board behind it, but it seems to work fine for me.

The thing I love about this fan is the "bearing noise" is much better and much more quiet vs the ADDA fan. I am also thinking about trying out a delta fan... but this one works so well for me.


Where did you order from? If you ordered from sidewinder, they offer EXCELLENT customer support and will definitely take care of you regarding the bad fan you got. From 1800 to 2500 RPM, mine is silent bearing-wise.


Good idea on putting it as an external fan! I might have to try that.... not sure since my units temps are pretty darn good.




On another side note, I am up and running on the zippy PSU. I love it! Right now it is external... gotta mod it to fit inside now.
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Re: Capacitor leakage?

Postby eco001 » Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:08 am

irev210 wrote:I notice that it runs CLOSE to the board behind it, but it seems to work fine for me.

Interesting. I figured you must have done a similar mod as me to get your results. Which ReadyNAS are you running?

irev210 wrote:Where did you order from? If you ordered from sidewinder, they offer EXCELLENT customer support and will definitely take care of you regarding the bad fan you got. From 1800 to 2500 RPM, mine is silent bearing-wise.

I ordered from SVC.com. I haven't called them, but for a $5 fan, I'm tempted to just order another and use the louder one elsewhere.

irev210 wrote:On another side note, I am up and running on the zippy PSU. I love it! Right now it is external... gotta mod it to fit inside now.

I'd love to see some pics when you do this. I'll be looking for them under 'User Tips'. ;)

eCo
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Re: Capacitor leakage?

Postby irev210 » Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:36 pm

irev210 wrote:On another side note, I am up and running on the zippy PSU. I love it! Right now it is external... gotta mod it to fit inside now.

I'd love to see some pics when you do this. I'll be looking for them under 'User Tips'. ;)

eCo[/quote]



i am completely modified using the zippy PSU.


The 40mm fan needs to be removed and I should just run the PSU open like the revised READYNAS NV/NV+


I have the older READYNAS NV model.


Runs awesome, I moved the 92mm outside the case like you did. Here are my current temps (amb temp = 74F)

Disk 1 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 31C / 87F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 2 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 32C / 89F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 3 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 32C / 89F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK
Disk 4 SAMSUNG HD501LJ 465 GB, 31C / 87F, Write-cache ON, SMART+ OK



Fan 1 2142 RPM


Temp 1 29.5C / 85F


i am happy i have pretty much the best PSU money can buy in my readynas now :)


Infrant- You use decent stuff everywhere else, not sure why you took shortcut here.
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