The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

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The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby Dizzysoul » Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:37 am

Introduced To A Nightmare
I've spent no less than 72 hours, over a period of months, dealing with all the problems of the ReadyNAS Duo. I've spoken to tech support levels 1, 2, and 3, who knew little about this product's issues or how to solve them. I was able to talk with very nice people, who sincerely tried to help me, but ultimately knew nothing and could do nothing. I don't blame them, because if I were Netgear, I wouldn't want anyone to know about the many flaws in my product's design.

If you search these forums for the "ReadyNAS Duo", you will begin to see the many problems that people are having with blinking blue lights and corrupted drives. I fell victim to this myself, and through much wasted time, managed to gather an idea on how this is happening, and how to fix it.

From my understanding, there is a memory chip inside the ReadyNAS that stores a Linux-based operating system. This operating system is responsible for operating the device and driving the "FrontPage" web interface. It weighs in a little over 200MB in size. The ReadyNAS however, only uses its internal memory to store the original copy. When you insert an empty hard disk into the ReadyNAS, the operating system is copied over from memory and installed on the disks themselves. At this point, the ReadyNAS boots itself from the hard disk like any normal computer.

And herein lies the problem: The integrity of the hard disks, and the stability of the NAS itself, are intricately tied together. If one of these components fail, both of them fail. Which seems to happen fairly often. When the ReadyNAS tries to load the corrupted operating system, it will hang during the boot process, not knowing what to do next. To make matters worse, everything is managed under an LVM partition, meaning that your important data is stored within an additional software layer. This adds an extra level of complication in the event of a disaster. LVM is great on production machines, but I feel backup partitions are better off not using it.

Have you experienced these symptoms?

  • The blue light pulses forever, and never changes.
  • Frontview is completely inaccessible.
  • Your ReadyNAS network shares are not reachable.
  • Your ReadyNAS is invisible to RAIDar and HTTP requests from your network.
  • The unit refuses to power off and you are forced to pull the plug, or is a power outage, and your Readynas refuses to boot correctly.
  • Re-Flashing the firmware works correctly, but still doesn't fix your drive.
  • Even after experiencing the above problems, your ReadyNAS will still give a normal error code (3 long flashes, 2 quick flashes) when starting the NAS with no hard disks installed.

Chances are, the ReadyNAS operating system is corrupted beyond repair, and it is unable to boot correctly. If you are really unlucky, your hard disk's partition table may be corrupted as well. The tech support staff are not willing to tell you this, and will probably blame the ReadyNAS unit itself. They will offer to replace it, and even promise that your hard disks will magically come back to life once you place them into a new ReadyNAS unit. The only problem is, it has nothing to do with the ReadyNAS unit. The drives are corrupted. They will fail inside any ReadyNAS unit!

Your only chance is to pray the main LVM partition is still intact, and perform a data recovery.

Data Recovery? Mission Impossible.
When your operating system becomes corrupted, the most common thing to do is mount it inside another operating system. This way, you have full access to all the system files that would normally be restricted, and then you can easily fix or replace them. There are many hard drive deaths every year, but only a fraction of them are mechanical issues. Most drive failures are software based, which can often be fixed or recovered with little effort.

When Netgear first released the ReadyNAS Duo, it used a common ext3 filesystem, and stored data in blocks of 4k size. This was compatible with any Linux operating system, on any type of hardware. Then one day, going against all reason, Netgear decides to release an update that changes the ReadyNAS default filesystem to use an ext4 partition with a whopping 16k block size. While most Linux distros can handle Ext4 partitions, none of them support block sizes above 4k. The only exception is operating systems designed to run on exotic hardware, like SPARC, or in this very unfortunate case, the ReadyNAS Duo.

Not only that, but a 16k block size means that every file must take up 16k of space, even if the file itself is much smaller. This is not such a big problem for data partitions, where almost every file can be expected to closely match or exceed that size. However, operating systems, Linux especially, are full of tiny configuration files. A good operating system maximizes read/write performance by packing these files together and reducing seek time. But when you use a 16k block size, you end up with thousands of small files sitting inside large empty blocks. Not only does this reduce performance, but it increases your chances of file corruption.

A Workaround
As I mentioned above, one of the flaws with the ReadyNAS Duo is that your data is intertwined with the operating system. Despite what Netgear's tech support may tell you, I would not recommend swapping the disks around, or trying to start the ReadyNAS on just a single disk. If you do this, you risk the ReadyNAS formatting the drive and erasing all your data. If the partition tables are corrupted enough, the ReadyNAS unit will format your disks, even if you never engaged the factory reset. I HAVE HAD THIS HAPPEN TWICE!!

What you need to do, is this:

Data Recovery, Step I
  • Remove both existing drives from the ReadyNAS.
  • Plug one of the drives into your PC using a SATA-to-USB adapter. I have already tested and verified this specific adapter works:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812232002
  • If you are running Windows, use 'Computer Management' to check the drive layout. You should see three partitions, with the third partition taking up most of the drive. It should be labeled 0x8LVM or something similar. If you can see this, then the drive should be recoverable.
  • If Windows locks up from trying to load the drive, chances are the partition table is corrupted. You will need to use a partition recovery program like TestDisk to fix the partition table before proceeding.
  • If the drive loads as 'Not Initialized' and won't let you Initialize it manually, then you will probably need a professional data recovery service. You can try using diagnostics tools provided by the drive manufacturer to fix the drive, but chances are the drive platters will need to be transplanted, or the circuit board replaced.
  • If you are running Linux, check to make sure you can access the LVM by using the commands pvscan and vgscan. Try to activate the LVM partition by using 'vgchange -a y' and pay attention to where it's mounted (mine was /dev/c/c). Use the fsck command to scan the LVM. You should get a message saying 'bad block size: 16384' which is normal. If you have a problem running any of these commands, make sure you have the LVM2 software installed by running apt-get install LVM2.
  • If you can't see or access the LVM on one disk, try the other one. They are mirrored, so it doesn't matter which one you use, as long as one of them works.
  • Once you verify that the operating system can 'see' the LVM, then you need to do a sector-by-sector backup. In fact, this is the only way to backup the partition, because of the 16k block size. I used a windows program called Acronis True Image, but any program capable of disk imaging and sector-by-sector backup should do. Make sure the backup program can backup and restore single partitions within a volume, because we only want to backup the largest LVM partition, which holds all our files.

Now that you managed to back up the LVM partition with all our data, we can proceed to the next step.

Data Recovery, Step II
  • We need to install an empty drive into the ReadyNAS, so that it can install a fresh copy of the operating system. The drive needs to be the same size as the one we're recovering, or bigger. You can use your PC to format one of the existing drives to be empty, but make sure you are comfortable with wiping out all the data.
  • If the ReadyNAS refuses to setup the new drive, you can use a firmware reset, or factory reset, to nudge it along.
  • Once the new drive is setup and running, you should have a solid blue light and solid green light from one of the drive bays. RAIDar, FrontView, and the ReadyNAS itself should all be functioning properly and visible on the network. This is further indication that the ReadyNAS unit is not physically broken, just unable to boot from the corrupted disks.
  • Poweroff the ReadyNAS system, and remove the now-functioning drive. Use the USB-to-SATA adapter to connect the disk to your PC.
  • Using the same methods in step one, locate the LVM partition taking up most of the drive. This is the new data partition. Delete this partition from the drive, and only this partition. The other two partitions (which I believe are boot and swap partitions) should be left untouched. Windows users can use Computer Management to simply delete the LVM partition. I don't know the proper steps for doing this in a Linux environment.
  • There should be a large amount of free space where the new LVM partition used to be. Using the backup software, restore your existing LVM partition into that empty space. It should be a perfect fit, or if you are using a larger drive, you should have extra space left over at the end.
  • Once the restoration process is complete, plug this drive back into the ReadyNAS. Using FrontView, check to see that your existing shares have been restored. Hopefully, they have. Make sure you setup user accounts to access your files. If there are any permission issues, you can use the share options to force a new user/group onto all your files.
  • If you can see the shares through FrontView, but for some reason can't access them over the network, there might be additional permissions conflicts going on. Try extracting your data by using a Backup Job to dump everything into an external drive.

Conclusion
Once you are successful in recovering your data, I suggest you never use the ReadyNAS Duo ever again. You learned your lesson. If you are still crazy enough to use it, however, I HIGHLY recommend you look into resetting the block size back to 4k or lower. One way to do this, is by downgrading the firmware to a version still using the ext3 file-system. There are other methods on resetting the blocksize posted in these forums as well. But you have been warned!
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby mdgm » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:26 am

Sounds like you've had a pretty bad experience. I must say that my NASes have been working fine.

It is a good idea to take regular backups in case you have problems. It saves having to muck around with data recovery (not to mention the expense) in the event of failure of the RAID array. Any RAID array can fail.

Btw, it's EXT3 with a 16k blocksize, not EXT4 with a 16k blocksize.

If your NAS fails to boot properly on one disk you can shutdown your NAS within 10 minutes and your data should be ok and not wiped.
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Please look at useful links and search for other posts. If you have a question chances are someone else has posted on it previously. You know the saying: "Two great minds think alike"
NB: A ReadyNas is not an excuse not to have a backup. Fire, theft, multiple disk failures, other hardware failure, floods, user negligence etc. can all result in loss of data.
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby yoh-dah » Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:05 am

You wouldn't happen to have the system log from the failure would you? The problem you're citing is not a common one and we can probably tell whether you've had some disk flakiness or bad memory that caused your pain. Perhaps you can post or PM me with your case number with Support so we can track whether the proper advise was given.
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby alokeprasad » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:25 pm

Do other ReadyNAS products share this "drawback" in the way they copy the OS from the ROM to the disks etc?

Aloke Prasad
Somewhat nervous owner of a new Duo.
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby mdgm » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:35 pm

All ReadyNas store the OS on the flash (at least currently sold ones as far as I know). If your NAS OS becomes corrupted you should be able to do a firmware re-install and the OS will be re-installed from the flash onto the disks.

If you can't fix a problem yourself, contact support for help. There will be some extreme cases where you have to restore from backup but if you follow procedure correctly you should be ok.

If you accidentally factory default, you should be able to tell from RAIDar and unplug power within 10 minutes to abort the process.

As always you should backup your data regularly. No RAID array is infallible. You can also have fire or theft. So look after your data and back it up responsibly.
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Useful links: FAQ|Hardware Compatibility List|Docs: Setup Guide, Manual|Downloads|Unofficial Tips|GPL|MDGM on Twitter|MDGM's Unofficial Guides
Please look at useful links and search for other posts. If you have a question chances are someone else has posted on it previously. You know the saying: "Two great minds think alike"
NB: A ReadyNas is not an excuse not to have a backup. Fire, theft, multiple disk failures, other hardware failure, floods, user negligence etc. can all result in loss of data.
How we users can contact NETGEAR Technical Support | Australia: 1300 361 254 / Other Numbers|Online Submission
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby alokeprasad » Sun Oct 11, 2009 6:39 pm

I think this "pull the plug in 10 minutes" method should be improved/changed in the future. The RNAS should clearly display a dialog box indicating what it is about to do instead and ask for verification before nuking the data on disk.

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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby BobRoss » Mon Oct 12, 2009 9:08 am

I'm not a NetGear apologist; it certainly sounds like you've had a bad experience with the device and that really sucks. There very well may be problems with the model line in question, but a compounding issue is relying on a single storage device for your data.

Pretty much every SAN/NAS that I have worked with or are familiar with (EMC, NetApp, IBM, Dell, NetGear, etc.) have some proprietary method of storing or manipulating the data in a non user-serviceable format. NetGear is not an outlier in their approach. RAID arrays are not designed to support sector/block level access on a disk-by-disk basis outside of the array (how would you get the parity information for a RAID5/6 array with a single disk?). Even with RAID1 simply plugging a disk into a non-RAID system and extracting your data from it may be possible, but there's no reason that I'd expect that it should be trivial to perform.

RAID is not a backup. If you are trying to recover from a failure by doing block-level recovery of the disks you've lost the battle before it even started.

Hosts fail, disks fail, NICs fail, etc. and the only way to ensure you can quickly recover from a catastrophic failure is having at least one known-good backup of your data (hopefully more if you can afford it). This particular problem (corrupted disk OS) could've been easily recovered from if a after a factory reset followed by recovery from backups. If the host firmware was corrupt, there's a couple more options (reloading new firmware, new NAS unit, etc.) but again, all easily recoverable with the availability of a reliable backup. I don't believe the ReadyNAS approach is fatally flawed.
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby talmage » Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:20 am

I'm having the same problem as the OP. My ReadyNAS Duo wouldn't come on line after I shut it down. I don't know if my disks are corrupt. I've tried the firmware fixes with the paperclip and the USB drive. I'm in contact with Netgear support now.

In the meantime, in V4.1.5 Radiator - any chance 4K block size will return?, someone recommended the FUSE ext2fuse driver as a way to read the drives as formatted by the SPARC-based ReadyNAS boxes. He said that the debugfs man page is helpful.

------ Edit ------
Anna, a 2nd line technical support person from Netgear, called me on October 18. She helped me to determine that only one of the drives in my Duo was bad. Now the Duo is running again and I didn't lose any of my files. I"ve backed it up to an external drive. Seagate is sending me a replacement drive under warranty.

I learned my lesson about backups. I"m buying another ReadyNAS to put off-site, at a friend's house. I'll use rsync to make the backups.
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby dekkit » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:27 am

I bought my ReadyNas Duo a few weeks ago and with reading stories like the above shortly after the purchase - it really concerned me!

I understand the need for off site backups, however it sounds like the real requirement here is to survive a hardware failure associated with the ReadyNas duo itself (not any of its HDDs) and at the very least plug a drive into another machine to pull the data off it. Fire, theft issues aside.

if anyone else has been following these threads, i've started putting together a vmware (free) image of a debian 5 distro, with all the patches described here and elsewhere to read a ReadyNas duo disks with 16K blocksize via a usb casing (or sata to usb plug). Its not the most streamlined approach but it is simpler for non-linux users like myself (with only a few terminal commands required) to access the files (but only if the hdds havent completely failed or there is some other strange issue at play)

Does anyone have a place where i can upload the vmware image 2gig file for the community to test or better yet use? it would be great if someone could add to this and write a simple script for one-click mounting of the usb drive
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby dekkit » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:27 am

FYI - download Location for the Debian image can be found in this forum:

viewtopic.php?f=25&t=24861&p=191778#p191778
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby mdgm » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:06 am

dekkit wrote:I bought my ReadyNas Duo a few weeks ago and with reading stories like the above shortly after the purchase - it really concerned me!


Go on a forum and you'll read posts by the small number of users who have problems.

dekkit wrote:I understand the need for off site backups, however it sounds like the real requirement here is to survive a hardware failure associated with the ReadyNas duo itself (not any of its HDDs) and at the very least plug a drive into another machine to pull the data off it. Fire, theft issues aside.


Hard drives are more likely to fail than anything else. Most hardware problems that can occur with a ReadyNas are easily fixed.

dekkit wrote:if anyone else has been following these threads, i've started putting together a vmware (free) image of a debian 5 distro, with all the patches described here and elsewhere to read a ReadyNas duo disks with 16K blocksize via a usb casing (or sata to usb plug). Its not the most streamlined approach but it is simpler for non-linux users like myself (with only a few terminal commands required) to access the files (but only if the hdds havent completely failed or there is some other strange issue at play)


Great.
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ReadyNas - 2x RND4000 - ReadyNas NV+ Hard Drives: 4x ST31500341AS RAM: 256MB - 1x RNDU6000 - Ultra 6 Hard Drives: 6x ST31500341AS RAM: 1GB.
Useful links: FAQ|Hardware Compatibility List|Docs: Setup Guide, Manual|Downloads|Unofficial Tips|GPL|MDGM on Twitter|MDGM's Unofficial Guides
Please look at useful links and search for other posts. If you have a question chances are someone else has posted on it previously. You know the saying: "Two great minds think alike"
NB: A ReadyNas is not an excuse not to have a backup. Fire, theft, multiple disk failures, other hardware failure, floods, user negligence etc. can all result in loss of data.
How we users can contact NETGEAR Technical Support | Australia: 1300 361 254 / Other Numbers|Online Submission
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby cheajack » Mon Nov 23, 2009 5:05 am

I agree with Dizzysoul as I'm currently encountered the same problem.

I believe my HDD corrupted during transferring of data where in the mid-way got lost connection
(where I had never encounter this before for 3 months; I verified all the network were still working perfectly & form time to time I did reboot scandisk to check for errors & usually will FOUND errors fixed by ReadyNAS)

and the ReadyNAS Duo most probably already read my "corrupted" HDD as new RAW unformatted/unpartitioned HDD & proceeded to formatting my HDD.

One very big problem here is ReadyNAS OS should NEVER proceed with partition/formatting user HDD without any confirmation from user!
This situation is exactly like when you inserted a new HDD that automatically proceed with partition/formatting on your new HDD.

Secondly, ReadyNAS should provide a software/firmware solution to repair corrupted HDD caused by their unstable OS.
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby kevo » Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:20 am

I've had some issues with the Duo.

I have experienced this issue you speak of; when I was trying to use the machine to multiply data.....
In my case, I had two healthy drives; freshly setup on a brand new Duo.

My plan:
running A1 and A2; copy A1 to B1; copy B1 to B2; use A1/A2 somewhere else.

Acquired two new disks from an NVX, which may have been factory initialized.

Without thinking about it, I gleefully assumed the Duo would accept any new drive, re-initialize, test, and THEN begin the RAID process of replicating itself.
The process started and completed normally. I don't recall even checking to see if the drives operated just because the unit was operating normally; no flashing light show.

Then, introduced the second new drive. can't remember where the light show started, but basically ....I've learned you need to watch what you feed your beast.

Not only did my the two new disks become data cadavers, but the "copier" drive went coocoo for coco puffs as well. At this point, I relied on my "untouched" original drive .....used a few steps:
-booted duo without any drives to see what's so exciting inside ---- the lights flashed ---- my assumption is ..."hello, where are my better halves?"
-turned off.
-booted duo cold with the one healthy drive ---- because IT CAN ;o]
-turned off.
-at this point, I lit a few candles and started a meditation with the duo; we had some words, maybe a few demands.
-booted cold with one healthy drive and a very cleaned up, unpartitioned used drive. ...they both had the same capacity; I just didn't want to complicate things at this point.
-the RAID process started and completed..... the two drives were back and the original settings were restored.


side note ----- practice on SMALLER drives because you will be eating a lot of popcorn while singing with your terabyte friends.

My Rules of Engagement:
-use proper and "supported" drives; as in .....use what works.
-view the drive independently, FIRST.
-clean the drive of any partitions/partition table.
-MAINTAIN GREAT COPIES of your data before ever preparing yourself for new adventures.



best of luck --------- I am extremely pumped about these devices, nevertheless.

kevin
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby mdgm » Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:29 pm

alokeprasad wrote:I think this "pull the plug in 10 minutes" method should be improved/changed in the future. The RNAS should clearly display a dialog box indicating what it is about to do instead and ask for verification before nuking the data on disk.

You can look at RAIDar. Also accidentally holding in the reset switch for 30 seconds rather than 5 is not something that many people would do.
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ReadyNas - 2x RND4000 - ReadyNas NV+ Hard Drives: 4x ST31500341AS RAM: 256MB - 1x RNDU6000 - Ultra 6 Hard Drives: 6x ST31500341AS RAM: 1GB.
Useful links: FAQ|Hardware Compatibility List|Docs: Setup Guide, Manual|Downloads|Unofficial Tips|GPL|MDGM on Twitter|MDGM's Unofficial Guides
Please look at useful links and search for other posts. If you have a question chances are someone else has posted on it previously. You know the saying: "Two great minds think alike"
NB: A ReadyNas is not an excuse not to have a backup. Fire, theft, multiple disk failures, other hardware failure, floods, user negligence etc. can all result in loss of data.
How we users can contact NETGEAR Technical Support | Australia: 1300 361 254 / Other Numbers|Online Submission
Toggle ReadyNAS Remote Firewall Unofficial Guide for moving from Sparc ReadyNAS to x86 ReadyNAS
If you like my add-ons or guides, please donate:
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Re: The design flaws behind the ReadyNAS Duo, and the fixes.

Postby mdgm » Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:34 pm

cheajack wrote:One very big problem here is ReadyNAS OS should NEVER proceed with partition/formatting user HDD without any confirmation from user!

I disagree. The warnings are clear in the documentation about disks needing to be wiped that have been used elsewhere when added to the array. If perhaps a disk appears to not be from the array this may cause issues, but you should backup your data anyway, so it shouldn't be an issue. It would be a pain to be prompted about wiping a disk each time you add one.
cheajack wrote:Secondly, ReadyNAS should provide a software/firmware solution to repair corrupted HDD caused by their unstable OS.

I don't believe it would be corrupted due to the OS. More likely disk problems. If it is an OS problem, NetGear support should be able to fix it.
ReadyNas User.
ReadyNas - 2x RND4000 - ReadyNas NV+ Hard Drives: 4x ST31500341AS RAM: 256MB - 1x RNDU6000 - Ultra 6 Hard Drives: 6x ST31500341AS RAM: 1GB.
Useful links: FAQ|Hardware Compatibility List|Docs: Setup Guide, Manual|Downloads|Unofficial Tips|GPL|MDGM on Twitter|MDGM's Unofficial Guides
Please look at useful links and search for other posts. If you have a question chances are someone else has posted on it previously. You know the saying: "Two great minds think alike"
NB: A ReadyNas is not an excuse not to have a backup. Fire, theft, multiple disk failures, other hardware failure, floods, user negligence etc. can all result in loss of data.
How we users can contact NETGEAR Technical Support | Australia: 1300 361 254 / Other Numbers|Online Submission
Toggle ReadyNAS Remote Firewall Unofficial Guide for moving from Sparc ReadyNAS to x86 ReadyNAS
If you like my add-ons or guides, please donate:
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